What It All Boils Down To...

[moonshayde]

I'm talking about ships.

I've noticed that in multiple fandoms (Smallville, Stargate, X-Files, and Harry Potter for example) there may be discussions about plot, character, themes, and story, but in the end it all seems to boil down to ship. (Defining ship here in the broad sense - het or slash.) Sure, there are people in fandom that are there just for characters and plot. But those that are mainly focused on shipping is by far the majority. Once you weed through the hearty discussion of character arcs and plot, you'll see that people are arguing for "who ends up with who." Out of everything, this becomes the main focus and the most passionate for fans.

Take a look at any forum or discussion area. Doesn't matter which fandom. Most of them mirror each other.

So, I ask why? Why do we (in general) abandon everything else about the story, making it secondary to the ship? Why is it so vital to have the end goal be "so and so ends up with Clark" or "so and so ends up with Mulder" or "so and so ends up with Jack?" Why does that becoming the most defining attribute of the story or the characters? Why are we defining them by their romantic entanglements? Why are we defining them by their prize at the end of the day?

And is it the woman who is the prize in the end? Or the man? I've seen this go back and forth and it may depend on the fandom.

It happens across fandoms. I've noticed it a lot lately. As stargazercmc mentioned, is this something inate or does fandom perpetuate it? I wonder does this feed some basic human need or is something else going on here?

Comments

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

I think part of it is a reaction to the "everyone needs to get married, have kids, etc" way of thinking that has permeated movies and tv shows for the last almost 100 years.

Go back further. Even Pride and Prejudice was obsessed in areas about finding the right husband. Jane Eyre was about getting Jane and Rochester together.

I don't think it's fandom per se. I think it's a way of thinking that gets repeated, revisited and reinvented generation after generation. At a very young age, kids are seeing tv shows and movies where the leading man and leading lady getting together. It's an easy plot device to use. It becomes something "normal" in the every day way of thinking. It finally becomes THE plot point to discover because it's the "natural" one to gravitate to because it's everywhere. Why would anyone look for other things when this particular part of the story just HAS to be there or you just don't have a story worth watching/reading? I mean, if it isn't there, isn't that a sign of the Apocalypse?

It's conditioning and brainwashing. :)

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. *g*

[betacandy.livejournal.com]

I agree with this (and no, I didn't just stop with this comment). I think there's a longterm cultural obsession with romance and that filters into fandom. Plus, I think TV, movies and novels have developed this really stock form of romance* and think they can just replicate it a billion times and we'll keep coming back, so it's a vicious cycle.

*There is such a thing as well-written, fascinating romance... but it's about as rare as having a show kill off its lead. :~D

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that's a huge part of it. I just find it really interesting how with some people the whole story gets boiled down to the pairing of choice. Everything is een through that lens. I've done it before myself so it's not a value judgement here. i'm just curious.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

That's a very good point. I'm really thinking about and trying to understand the spychology of this pattern and why there is so much passion, both sheer joy and utter hatred that can be connected with funnel a show/story down to a single pair. I find it fascinating.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Great points, Tiv. I didn't read your post earlier because Kerri's question/post hit a nerve with me. But you're right. Even Dickens had it as a major plot-point in a lot of his books, as did Dumas. Heck, the overriding "plot" in Odysseus was his having to get back to his wife Penelope (all the while dicking around with Circe and other lovelies) and the Kingship.

Inanna was all about retrieving her husband from the underworld.

HOWever...taking *one* type of plot above all others and elevating it to Obsessive status is beyond all frustration, whether it's shorthand or not for "and it all happened happily".

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Hit a nerve? More like I jackhammered it ;)

But GAH. THANK YOU *random caps* You finally said the right thing for me to concisely vocalize (or type) what I meant. I obviously didn't make sense last night because not too many people understood what I was trying to say.

It boils down to the question of why people would take a story where the romance or possibility of romance is a subplot and make it the MAIN plot when obviously that is the the end game for the story?

Does that make more sense? The theme of Lord of the Rings is not the story of Aragorn and Arwen finally becoming a couple. It's primarily Frodo's journey and the struggle within himself.

That is not the best example because LOTR has many themes. But do I make any sense at all? LOL

[dknightshade.livejournal.com]

I think there's a big difference between small and big fandoms on this. One of my fandoms is all about the OC. Seriously, everyone has their own OC and it's not always to end up shippy. I think in larger fandoms part of it becomes about identity. Camps develop and people gravitate to a camp which they most relate to. And then that sort of informs what people write.

I don't know, as someone who's mostly gen in most of her fandoms and a multishipper in others, it could also be that I see the gen because I want to. But again, I do think that in smaller fandoms where there aren't enough enough authors to segregate into camps, it's different.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm not being very clear here. I'm not focusing on fandom exactly, but more of some of the patterns I've seen over different fandoms with different pairings. I'm not even tackling the militant nature of some ships and shippers either, just one aspect of passion from shippers.

I'm curious about the fans who see everything just through the lens of their ship, ignore canon, and even sacrifice character because at the end of the day, it's just all about the ship.

I don't mean that as a negative. I know I've done it before in different fandoms. I just wonder about the psychology behind it.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

That's really interesting. You may be right, but my first real experiences with fandom were with a resolutely gen group of people. I'm very into gen, except where there's canon ship (John and Aeryn, Max and Logan)--and even there, my interest is not primarily shippy, I think. (Major exception: Pushing Daisies is all about Piemaker and Dead Girl! I love Olive and Emerson, but I can't imagine the show without the romance!)

I've noticed, though, that I seem to be in the minority. I go through piles and piles of archived stories and recs to find gen SG-1 and SGA (I occasionally read stuff from other fandoms, but not too often). It seems to my unsystematic eye that slash really dominates Stargate fandom (both shows). I have very little interest in relationships that don't come overtly out of the shows--and I can make slash jokes too, but I don't really see it. (Here's the possibly weirdest thing: if you pushed me to name one character on the two shows who I thought most likely to be gay or bi, I'd say John Sheppard. He "never sees this coming" and doesn't seek out relationships with women, and he seems flirty with anybody. Yet John/Rodney is not a pairing I can really see, and John/anybody else just strikes me as wildly improbable.)

I've wondered myself why that is. I think some part of it is that we love the characters and want them to be happy, and of course since we love more than one of them, wouldn't it be great if they were happy with each other? That works for me, because occasionally I do read slash, and when I do, it's generally my two favorites on a show: Daniel and Jack for SG-1, Rodney and Carson for SGA. Yet I really like Sam, Janet, and Teyla, but I don't want to read any het (I've tried some, and I just haven't found any I've enjoyed) or femslash (tried very little, really didn't like it).

I liked Carson and Cadman (but couldn't see that lasting!), and I like Rodney and Katie together. I'm even tempted to write a Katie story. But those pairings aren't very important to me (although when I thought in one ep they were going to kill Katie, I was making dire threats against the writers!).

Most shows have romantic or sexual relationships; most published fiction does too. I'm inclined to think that it's something innate, but the particular forms it takes are not: why is Stargate fandom so slashy when on tv, in literature, and in real life there are just more straights than gays? I think SF does tend to attract people already out of the mainstream in multiple ways, and one of those ways is sexually, but I think a lot of straights write and enjoy slash.

I'm mostly thinking out loud here (and at some length, apparently). I'm curious to see what other responses you get.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I've wondered myself why that is. I think some part of it is that we love the characters and want them to be happy, and of course since we love more than one of them, wouldn't it be great if they were happy with each other? That works for me, because occasionally I do read slash, and when I do, it's generally my two favorites on a show: Daniel and Jack for SG-1, Rodney and Carson for SGA. Yet I really like Sam, Janet, and Teyla, but I don't want to read any het (I've tried some, and I just haven't found any I've enjoyed) or femslash (tried very little, really didn't like it).

I think maybe you've really come close to the heart of it, at least for some. Perhaps the desire to see a happy ending (which often equates into romance) is so strong, that some of us funnel everything through shippy glasses and have that as our end result? Or maybe for some it's a way of living vicariously through the characters? Maybe you have a thing for John, for example, and if you identify most with Teyla or Rodney you become them and attach to the pairing? I don't know. I'm sure there are a lot of different answers.

I'm very curious wonder the psychology behind it.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I think some part of it is that we love the characters and want them to be happy

Thing is, sometimes, there are characters/people who *are never* going to be happy, from the way their faults lie, or "fate" knocks them...and their stories are *deeper* for it.

Aragorn, for example, had a happy ending with the former Elf of his dreams...but her ending was bittersweet.

Frodo's ending was beyond bitter-sweet. He saved his people, had no romance, had no relationships of the romantic type and basically saved the Shire for others. (that's how I see Daniel, I guess). To have a character like Frodo end up in a cliche Romance and end happily just demeans his character - and yet, I'm sure there are plenty of ficcers in that fandom who do just that for him.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

That's not me, you know ;) I quoted someone and forgot to use italics.

But now I am wondering if I see things this way because I look at everything from a storyteller's pov. If the end goal of the story is supposed to be about a romantic pairing, whether happy or tragic, then that is the goal of the story. However, if the main theme of the story is about a character battling the good and darkness in himself (Luke Skywalker, for exmaple) then for him to suddenly end up in a romance at the end of the story doesn't make much sense. The end result should reflect what has been laid out before it.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Which is why I think Tolkien had so many Heroes in his story, to fulfill expectations of one kind or another.

Aragorn: the King, Healer and Romantic (Arthurian Hero to the hilt)
Frodo: the Everyman saddled with Great Responsibility, for whom life doesn't end up completely well because he worked for the Greater Good
Gandalf: the Magickster, who moves around the plot-line institgating and helping to solve problems, and gets his just reward (going home) at the end of the Quest
Faramir: a Princeling who echoes the King's plotline in order to give the reader another version of the King's plotline of Romance - AND he gets to tame a warrior woman, to boot!
Samwise Gamgee: who goes on to marry the woman of his dreams, live with his bestest friend eveh (Frodo), in direct contrast with Frodo, who ends up giving his home to Sam, who was surely as heroic as Frodo himself was.

I could go on.

And I could go on. (and note how male oriented all of these Romances are)

[surreallis.livejournal.com]

I think it's just that many fans find it fun to explore the sex and romance in fanfic. There's always those who take things to an extreme and insist that their OTP become canon at the end, OR ELSE. And that 'or else' usually means the whole series is then ruined for them, and I really don't understand that, I have to admit. But one of the stereotypical traits assigned to women, that I think is hard to argue against, is that most women are interested in romance and sex more than, say, action or tech. (Not all, obviously, but plenty.) And most of the fans I know and interact with are fairly okay with letting the show play out as it will and just having fun playing with the sex and romance angle in fanfic. Plus, let's face it, most of us are attracted to at least one of the characters, thus we *want* to see them in romantic situations for various reasons.

I can't completely answer the question, because I really don't get the fans who rant about how the PTB 'owe' them a happy ending with the OTP of their choice getting together.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I understand that fandom and fanfic is usually about the porn. (I'm obviously in the minority on that one as I prefer other stories to porn.)

I guess what I am focusing on is more of what you discuss regarding OTPs.Maybe not just those that feel their show is ruined if their OTP doesn't happen or isn't fully realized, but fans that see everything through the lens of their ship, ignoring canon and

And I'm still not talking about people who do that in a casual way. We all see tv and film and read stories through our own set lens, no matter what that might be.

I'm talking about those where the ship is the absolute end result. Let's make up an example. Let's say Sam is torn between her scientific curiosity and her military mindset. This is a huge character arc for her and her consequences would boil down to her having to chose one over the other. Yet, instead of focusing on this very important trait and character journey for Sam, I am only preoccupied on how this will effect her relationship with Teal'c. I can justify everything about her, ignoring emotions and characteristics that ARE Sam as long as I make sure she is with Teal'c. She deserves Teal'c. They deserve to be together.

The psychology behind that fascinates me. I've done it before and I've probably done it to an extreme degree when I was younger. Why do people do it?

The attraction factor is a really salient point and I need to think on that some.

[surreallis.livejournal.com]

I don't get it either. I have a fandom friend who's been around my flist since my last fandom, and it's interesting to watch her go from fandom to fandom. Because as she gains an interest in a new show she inevitably posts about having to 'wait and see if there's an OTP for her to ship'. She literally has to have an OTP in the most rigid sense of the words in order to really get into the show. And I've seen a similar thing among the big OTP'er's (both slash and het) on my flist.

And I mean, that's fine, but I really, really don't understand it. To me, any ship is just icing. I love writing about it fanfic, but my love of a show isn't contingent on it.

So, I'll be interested in seeing if you can come up with anything to help us both get it.

[abyssinia4077.livejournal.com]

I've been asking that since I discovered fandom.

After I was surprised to discover fanfic existed at all I was SHOCKED when I discovered people were taking ficational characters who were not in an on-screen relationship and writing them in a relationship. It was a compulsion I'd never had, never even considered and it surprised me that so many people were so drawn to the idea.

Since moving into Stargate I've learned to enjoy some ship fic (generally the ones that really explore the characters and the world and aren't just about the sex or ship) and I've even written some and found it can give you a new angle with which to explore the character but...

I still really, really don't understand it and I'm still running around asking "why ship" and, well, I promise if I ever find the answer, I'll let you know. But I'm not sure everyone can necessarily articulate why it appeals to them and I highly doubt everyone's answer would be the same anyway.

It could partly be a basic human need - romantic and sexual relationships are a pretty common thread/shared experience among most humans. It's a classic storyline. I mean, in a way all stories are about people and how they interact and their relations and ship fic is just exploring one specific type of relationship.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

It could partly be a basic human need - romantic and sexual relationships are a pretty common thread/shared experience among most humans. It's a classic storyline. I mean, in a way all stories are about people and how they interact and their relations and ship fic is just exploring one specific type of relationship.

This is very true and is probably a huge part of it. There is no doubt that it's not classic. About as classic as they get, which tells me that is something maybe not inate but at least fundemental about it.

I just have this thing with analysis and it fascinates me why sometimes fans strip away everything else about a story and a character and focus through their own shippy lens onto a pairing and that pairing alone. It would be like reading Lord of the Rings and concluding that everything built up to Aragorn and Arwen.

[syrenslure.livejournal.com]

I think it's because unless you are a gen/noromo purist, in some ways it is the relationship in whatever flavor it is (angst, romance, h/c, first-time, ER, etc.) that draws us to the table. For me it isn't about any particular relationship. I have preferences, of course, but very, very rarely am I an OTP person in a fandom. However, I want to see the characters interact. i want my escapism in fanfic.

Case files and long drawn out novels are great, but they require commitment to read or write and skill to write well. Even then - a lot of people want the romance.

There are exceptions. One of my favorite stories (as in I reread it at least a couple of times a year) is Lost by Wintersong. It is not an MSR, and not really a romance at all. In fact Mulder and Scully are quite unwilling to take their relationship to that place because they are too close and too dependant on each other. The story is all about each of them as people and their relationship with each other without the hearts and flowers payoff. It is intensely emotional for their stark circumstances. I enjoy that ride.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

You bring up some excellent points, especially about people being drawn to the relationship.

I guess what I am asking is what turns a romantic subplot into the main plot for people when the actual theme of the story is geared toward something different.

XF changed a lot so I don't know if I can use that as a decent example, but I would argue that the Mulder and Scully romance was not the main end goal of the series. Yet, for some people it became the goal while watching. This is independent from fanfic and what we write and read and fandom goers, but more of watcher intent and what we take out of a tv show or what we derive from a book, etc.

And I say this as a MSR shipper.

So it fascinates me why this happens.

[syrenslure.livejournal.com]

I get it - like in Scarecrow and Mrs King or Moonlighting or whatever... where people become so invested in the "relationship" at the expense of the adventure, and the funny thing is maybe that's why so many of these series end up dying once the couples do get together.

Like in Lois and Clark - everyone knew that L&C would end up together, that was the point. But in some ways, for me, at least, the show was more fun with the flirting and dancing around and obliviousness. not that I didn't want my happy ending, but i loved the show more.

I would never stop watching a show because of a couple pairing, i think. Unless it was a complete change in the direction of the show. For example, in SG-1, I don't mind hints of Sam and Jack, but if they had ever come right out and made that canon, it might have made me squirm a bit.

/$0.02

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Ah, no. Sorry, that's not what I'm getting at. Ack, you are talking about something else entirely! Obviously, I should not be allowed to post thinky thoughts while tired.

I'm talking about when fans (in general which could include me or you or anyone) take a pairing, imgained or subplot and elevate it to the main plot of the story. I'm not talking fanfic. I am talking about watching a TV show, for example, and coming away with that inverse.

I wonder why. I wonder what psychologically makes some fans do this. I've done it before. Other people have done it. What drives fans to sometimes make ship THE absolute end result?

This has nothing to do with ship vs slash or that romance is bad. I love romance. I'm just curious.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

*loves them too*

No, and I know that say, Jack/Daniel is not THE end result for you. I would argue the majority of my flist has a great appreciation for story and romance within story, which is why I brought up the topic. I just wasn't very clear in my initial post, I guess. I know we're all adults here :)

[tresa-cho.livejournal.com]

I think... well, in my opinion and in my own case, one of my friend's icons explains it well: 'Fandom. Come for the porn. Stay for the people. And the porn.'

But in all seriousness, I know that I come to fandom to fill in the scenes that are missing from the show, or that I feel are missing. It's nice to live in the sort of fandomy verse where I can let my imagination go free. If I wanted to see the characters react in a 'normal' situation, then the canon will suffice. If I want my characters to be with someone that canon will not allow, then I turn to fandom.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

No, I agree. I've always agrued that fandom is the perfect place to explore possibilities. I have no issue with that at all. I play all over the place. I support gen, het, and slash :)

I was talking more about the phenomenon of where expecations of the show become focused on a romantic pairing where the obvious theme of the show is something else. Why disgard everything else about the show for that pairing? I don't mean in an icon or a fanvid or a fanfic, I mean for the show or book itself.

That fascinates me :)

[hoshi-reed.livejournal.com]

I am a multi shipper, and only because I adore ANGST.

Other than that, I've never gotten into a fandom shipper fight, I've only ever gotten into arguments about OOC and butchering of characterization.

Hell, the only thing I've been really passionate about in fandom is Chlois, and that is due to my history with ILL and has nothing to do with ship.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I'm a multishipper for some shows, too. I'm gen for others. I have OTPs. And I've engaged in behaviors that I'm discussing here in this thread.

I'm not really talking about fanfic or fandom wars or shipper fights. I'm fascinated in why sometimes we often find in fandoms a romantic subplot becomes the goal. For example, Superman related media. While the romantic element in Clark's life is an important one, I would argue it's not the main plot in the Superman mythos as a whole. His romantic love for Lois is a subplot. But for some fans, it becomes the plot. Similarly on Smallville, the show is supposed to be about Clark finding himself to eventually become Superman. The romantic aspect is just one part of that, but for some Clana, Chlark, and Clois shippers, it's the most important aspect of his life.

I'm interested on why that is not in fanfic but in general.

[crazymadjo.livejournal.com]

I think syrenslure hit it on the head. Relationships are what nearly all fiction is about. Burgess Meridith and his broken glasses aside, it's the way people interact with each other - love or hate - that usually drive conflict and story. When we love a character, we want that 'person' to be loved, preferably by someone we - the viewers - also love.

Also, romance and/or strong friendships feel so good, but in real life those intense feelings tend to wax and wane. Happily married fans can enjoy the new-love thrill of a "fling" through fictional characters, without bumming their significant others (much). *g* Single fans can have a bit of romantic escape with no strings attached! (Ever notice how the most intense feelings for our fandom-of-the-moment tend to fade after a few years?)

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

All very good points and I agree that syrenslure brings up elements I hadn't fully considered.

I think that gategrrl really sums it up well in some of the posts she made here. I'm more considered on viewer intent right here and how a romantic subplot can be morphed into the main plot of a story.

If I am reading a romance, then I know the end result should be romance. However, I would be jarred if I am watching a movie or a tv how that focuses mainly on friendship or family and suddenly it ends with romance. The story doesn't match up with the end theme.

The end result of Gone with the Wind should not be the same as the end of LOTR.

It fascinates me.

[spiletta42.livejournal.com]

I'm going to go with the quick answer here, and maybe I'll think about this later. But maybe it's that with a quality show, we trust the writers to give us an engaging plot, and even when we don't like something, they frequently change our minds in the next episode. We like to be surprised by the plot, even as we try to outguess it, and there are always multiple ways a well plotted show can go.

However, we don't trust them to leave our characters happy in the end, and on many shows they've been teasing us with UST for years, because it's part of the formula. So it's not that we care more about the ship than anything else, it's that we feel compelled to not leave it in the hands of the professionals. We worry about whether our beloved characters will get their due, and that worry becomes fannish obsession.

And for me, personally, whether or not I ship varies from fandom to fandom. There are entire fandoms where I don't give a frak who snogs who (BSG, TOS, TNG, HP . . . ) and others where I'll read/write gen or ship. Although I do seem to write more ship, probably because I get hounded for it, while my gen fic can sit half finished for years and nobody says boo. Which brings us back to fandom wanting ship, because it's so much harder to get that from the source.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

But do you sit down to watch a horror movie and expect a happy ending with a romantic outcome? (If you do, it's not a knock at you at all.)

That is what I am curious about. If I watch or read a romance, I expect a romantic ending, whether it's happy, bittersweet, or tragic. Whatever the set up is for the story I expect the resolution to be on the same level.

So I get curious as to the psychology of why sometimes fans (and I've done it myself) take a romantic subplot and conflate it to the main plot. Not in fanfic. I mean as the expected end goal for a tv show or book, whatever.

That concept interests me :)

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Horror movie happy ending:

Norman gets together with his mother.

Jason and Elm Street Nightmare guy go off into a dreamy sunset together.

Frankenstein gets his happy ending in "Young Frankenstein"!

Mina and Drac keep getting it on, happily ever and ever and ever.

[spiletta42.livejournal.com]

No, I sit down to a horror movie expecting blood and terror. But then movies are a different animal from television shows. In a movie, you only have an hour or two with the characters, so you get one or possibly two aspects from a slice of their lives. With a television show, at least with a good television show, you get to know the characters on multiple levels for an extended period of time.

I expect my 'ships to end happily if my 'ship has a canon basis -- deliberate UST on the part of the writers. Tease me, and do it well enough that I care, and I expect payoff.

However, I'd be completely pissed off if I sat down to watch Stargate SG-1 and instead of fighting the goa'uld, the team all retired to raise psychic beagles or whatever the hell it was that got mentioned the other day, and the show suddenly revolved around frolicking and snogging and raising lots of babies.

As a rule, I avoid chick flicks as dull, and prefer plotty sci-fi. In a forty-two minute show, three minutes of time dedicated to 'ship is plenty, maybe a few more minutes on a very special and rare occasion, with the 'ship limited to subtext and flirting that fits smoothly within the plot more often than not.

No, I don't think a romantic relationship is the end goal, but resolving an onscreen and deliberate situation of UST would take up three minutes or less of a series finale, and belongs there in some way. Sam and Jack fishing in Threads following the defeat of both Anubis and the replicators -- a fine ending.

Alternately, Buffy the Vampire Slayer did not have a romantic ending, at least for most of our characters, and it did not need one. Romantic ups and downs were woven into the show as a whole, and no relationship was in the process of building towards something that had to wait for the finale.

Roswell oozed shippy angst for three seasons, to the point where it frequently overshadowed other plot aspects, so whether or not the kids ended up together mattered. Other shows, not so much.

I expected a J/C and EMH/7 ending to Star Trek Voyager because the show seemed to promise it, but as pissy as I was when they ended that badly, it was only one of the reasons the finale sucked (what the frak happened to morals of any kind, future Janeway?), and I would have been even pissier if they'd just said 'screw the regs' and jumped into bed earlier in the series.

I'm also one who will write shippy fanfic, but secretly hate overly shippy episodes. Star Trek Voyager's shippiest episode was Resolutions and let's face it, it was a terrible episode. Multiple giant plot holes, and long flowery speeches. Gag me. On the other hand, SG-1's Divide and Conquer was beautiful.

It has to be done right, and for sci-fi, right means in moderation. Although I could probably watch the Daniel/Vala show all day, because they can spark and bicker and save the galaxy all at the same time, without missing a beat, and it's awesome, but they're the exception rather than the rule.

[spiletta42.livejournal.com]

Your movie question sent my mind off in a different direction as well. I do want happy endings for Sam/Jack and Daniel/Vala and other assorted tv pairings I've let into my heart, yet my favorite romantic themed movies . . . *goes to non-sci-fi part of dvd shelf* . . . Casablanca, Ladyhawke, Like Water for Chocolate, Lost and Delirious, Romeo and Juliet . . .

Interesting.

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Beats me, but it annoys the hell out of me. It's making Doctor Who fandom practically uninhabitable. :(

I mean, I'm certainly more interested in character inter-relationships than in anything else in most shows, I don't mind me a bit of well-written porn, and I'm not automatically against shipping and romance, by any means. What I don't understand is the whole OTP thing, the way people invest so heavily in particular, very narrowly-defined ideas about relationships to the point where everything else in the show -- all the other characters, other themes, plotlines whatever -- start to distort around the concept of the ship until everything is all about the ship and nothing else is allowed to matter at all. I call it the Black Hole of Shippiness, and it makes me tear my hair out. In Farscape, it led to characters, concepts and relationships I was a lot more interested in taking a firm backseat, for the fans and TPTB alike, to the John/Aeryn relationship, and in Who it's resulted in evil shipwars and character hate. And I just do not understand it. Does it have something to do with the cultural notion that romantic love is supposed to be this all-consuming, all-important obsession at the center of everyone's universe? Because I don't buy into that, either.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I think gategrrl actually found the one of the key issues regarding this topic. It's all about what the main theme of the story is.

If a romance novel, obviously the couple is the main theme. So in the end, you would expect the end result to be about them. Everything in the story revolves around them. They are the main plot.

In a show like Doctor Who, it's not. When I think of Doctor WHo, I don't automatically think of a pairing. i think of a guy who travels through time and has a soft spot for humanity and tries to help them. This is the fundemental aspect of the show. In Farscape, the John finding home (whether that is Earth or in space) AND the John/Aeryn theme were quickly established as the main goals of the show. So in the end, you would expect both these elements to weigh in heavily into the final outcome.

It doesn't surprise me why the shipping in the DW fandom would bother you in light of this.

I hope that makes sense.

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think what kind of expectations the show (or the book, or whatever) sets up, and what kind of genre the viewer/reader goes in expecting to see has got to make a huge amount of difference. And expectations can vary between people, too.

In the case of Farscape, one of the things that I really liked about the show was that, while Crichton was sort of the glue that held the whole thing together, it really wasn't all about him, but also about the lives of all these other fascinating people that he met and teamed up with on his travels. In my mind, it was very much an ensemble show, so what I expected from it was that we'd get a balanced exploration of all the characters' story arcs. Which, to be fair, it did try to do, it's just that in some cases it was more successful than in others. On the other hand, someone who really does see the show as being primarily about Crichton -- which is perhaps an understandable impression to get from it -- might resent time spent on other characters that could be devoted to exploring the relationships of the greatest importance to John, even while I'm complaining that time is being spent on J/A that I'd rather see devoted to D'Argo or Stark or whoever. So maybe that's a case where your expectations depend a bit on your perspective?

Doctor Who is an interesting case, actually, because for someone who came into the show at the start of the new series, I can see how the expectation of romance as a major theme would be there; whereas old school Who fans come into the show with a very different perspective and a whole different set of expectations about what the Doctor/Companion relationship is and what it means.

Erm, all of which just leads me to think, basically: "people who go into something predisposed to see and latch onto a romantic theme are more likely to see a ship as primary and central." Which hardly seems terribly insightful or profound. :)

[hoperomantic.livejournal.com]

I think you have to take a lot of things in context here actually.

For one, I do think that sometimes it depends on the ages of those in the discussion. It is a large generalization, but sometimes younger folk tend to be a little bit more focused on 'ships due to their stage of development. Though, as I said, that is a generalization, and certainly not always true by any means.

Also, I think it depends on the community or forum of course. For example, I do believe that you can find more generalized discussions in certain forums, whereas obviously, in a 'shipper forum, you are going to find discussions of that nature. *grin*

I think also that a lot of people don't necessarily discuss the deeper points of artworks in casual fandoms, not because they don't necessarily appreciate that aspect of things, but because it can be fun to focus on 'ships instead in a casual forum. It can be a matter of playing around with things in a less serious manner.

I think you have to take into account the medium of communication as well. While of course the internet can lend itself to more scholarly communication, it is often not as effective as face to face conversation. It generally does seem much easier to discuss things in person, than through text via the internet.

*shrug*

Those are just some thoughts off of the top of my head, though I will quit now so I stop taking up so much space. *grin*

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Oh don't worry. I always think in context. Fandoms vary as much as shippers vary. That's not the point I'm trying to make.

I'm zeroing in on patterns I have seen in several fandoms I've encountered, whether they be active fandoms or where I happen to lurk.

I'm talking about the groups or individuals that see everything just through the lens of their ship, ignore canon, and even sacrifice character becase at the end of the day, it's just all about the ship.

I don't even mean this is a bad or good way. A person can be extremely invested in a ship for one show and not care in another. I've done this before.

An example are the Harmonians from Harry Potter fandom. Some fans of this ship see the end goal of the entire series to be Harry should be with Hermoine or that hermoine should end up with Harry. Everything about the series is seen through that scope.

I just wonder about the psychology behind it.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I don't think it depends at all on the ages of the fans involved. Some of the most rabid shippers I've ever met on line or at conventions are middle aged women with children.

[beanpot.livejournal.com]

For me, shows that have a canon relationship are fun because you do become invested. Other shows, such as SG-1, I mutli-ship like mad because it's fun. Friendship, gen, porny-goodness, I like it all because it plays with characters I like.

What I cannot wrap my head around, no matter how many times I try, is the X-treme OTP. I tend to not like certain pairings when the followers sip too much of the kool-aid and become rabid in their defense. Especially when it means the sacrifice of other characters.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

That's what I mean. I'm talking about the groups in fandom that see everything just through the lens of their ship, ignore canon, and even sacrifice character becase at the end of the day, it's just all about the ship.

It's in different fandoms. It's not just in one fandom. I wonder about the psychology behind it.

[beanpot.livejournal.com]

I do think there is something to be said for the argument that human nature seems to pair people up. But as for the virulence for it in some circles - I'd love to see a study on it.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Moonshayde, this is a question I've asked multiple times in my LJ, and never come up with a satisfactory answer.

I don't mind ship myself, as long as it doesn't become the end-all and be-all; the only exception is Romance genre, wherein, that's the fucking POINT of the story, you know?

Sorry about the swearing. Shippers drive me crazy.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I think you got my point, even if there is no set answer. My flist is fairly diverse - people I know don't love a show or a story just for the ship. What interests me are the patterns I see. They are present in most decent sized fandoms where groups may talk about a character's story arc or a plot and deny their beliefs have nothing to do with ship, but in the end it clearly does. All it boils down to (for these people) is if their heronine or hero gets the guy/lady at the end of the day.

It fascinates me. it troubles me too, but it still fascinates me.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

You know how much I wonder the same thing. I love character and character interactions in shows.

For some shows, I'm all about seeing a OTP. Jane Austen is my favorite author, and the theme of her books was ALL about the romance. But I read mysteries too where it's all about what happened and how the characters react or develop, or other stories.

And some shows I'll think two people are cute together or not cute together, but if there's other side characters or issues that are intriguing enough, I'll be happy to follow the writers down that path as well.

And I'm probably skewed by my own "gen" perspective of SG-1 as much as ship/slash people are skewed by theirs. But it's true, I can see similar themes in fandoms I don't even follow. The names change, but the issues remain the same.

I like watching and discussing all aspects of the meta and relationships (And I mean that in the broadest sense of parent/child; sibling; friend; teammate/coworker; lover; enemy, etc.) To me focusing on just one pairing is too limiting.

I do think the tunnel vision feeds on itself. Someone likes a pairing in a show, meets other people who like that pairing. They compare notes, squee over moments, create fanfic, etc, and some people take that to the next level...as there is a spectrum in every kind of fanatic activity. (people watch a game, people wear the team colors, people know every statistic, people paint their bodies). In show fandom, it goes into looking for more of the pairing they like, and for some people, can go into viewing everything from the perspective of how it relates to that pairing.

Love Teal'c/Sam, but this episode is about Jack? Then that colors the perception of the show. And then that reaction influences the perception either in agreement or in reaction to it among other fans in all parts of the spectrum.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

It's true. We're all skewed by our own interpretations and what we expect out of the show/movie/book.

But as a wise woman once told me, characization does not equal romance. That is just once facet, one method of showing character. There are many ways to do this.

I expect a show/movie/book to be fairly consist. A horror should provide me horror. A romance -romance. An action film action. That doesn't mean these genres can't overlap. But the primary theme/plot should stay consistent throughout the story while the subplot prop it up. This is a story fundementals here.

So when I find that fans, whether it's me this around or you next time or anyone, take a romantic subplot and make it the main plot knowing that the theme of the story is not romance, it fascinates me. I wonder why :)