Is It UST?
Aug. 1st, 2006 08:17 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
moonshaydeThis isn't exactly meta, per se, but delves into some meta issues within the context of fanfic and writing. You can apply this to many fandoms, but I will be using SG-1 to illustrate my points.
I find UST (unresolved sexual tension) to be a term/phrase that is often misused and can be dangerous when labeling writing. Conversely, it can be helpful. So...what do you do?
UST has a foundation in the inherent chemistry between two characters, three characters, an ensemble cast, etc. Chemistry in general is the heart of most engrossing tv and writing. Without chemistry, the characters fall flat and we are less emotionally involved in their actions.
The thing with chemistry is that it can be interpreted and read in a number of ways, one of which is UST. While I am not saying that all chemistry translates into UST, all UST has its roots in chemistry.
Apparently, this can create a problem in the fanfic world. Someone who likes gen will tend to turn their backs on UST and label it a form of ship/slash. Or a fic that may have UST between Sam/Jack may be dismissed because of a dislike for that pairing.
However, there is a chance that the UST in the fic is not actually UST at all, and just chemistry. Could we be turning our backs on outstanding fiction because we perceive UST in a fic when really there's not? Are we dismissing fic that has amazing chemistry between characters because it's labeled as UST, but that UST can be read as either sexual or not? And are we, as writers, boxing ourselves into a corner when writing a fic that has chemistry between characters that could be read either way?
I'm a fan of labels. Really. I don't want to open a fic and get a surprise pairing inside. I don't want to read a fic that I thought was gen and find that it's really a Jack/Daniel slash fic in disguise or fic where Sam and Daniel are secretly angsting over their feelings for each other. Not when I tuned in for a gen fic. What I'm trying to say is, are we limiting ourselves with UST?
I would say the main draw to the show that many of us share is the amazing chemistry between the cast. Whether that cast for you consists of an original cast -- say Jack, Daniel, Sam and Teal'c -- or a change in cast -- say Jack, Sam, Teal'c, and Jonas. It could be Cameron, Sam, Teal'c, Vala, and Daniel. Landry. Hammond. Janet. Whatever. It's the chemistry between the characters added to a decent plot.
Whether your pairing is canon or not is irrelevant. There is no denying that in most shows there is chemistry between most of the characters. In the case of SG-1, I would argue there is chemistry between all of the characters. I really don't think you can deny the chemistry between Sam and Jack -- some may not see it as sexual chemistry, but there is some kind of chemistry between them, whatever it is. There is chemistry between Jack and Daniel, whatever it is. The same for Jack and Teal'c. Daniel and Teal'c. Sam and Daniel. Sam and Teal'c. And so on and so forth.
The show has given us several examples of chemistry. You can look to Need for Jack's caring for Daniel. You can look to The Fifth Race for Daniel's caring for Jack. Singularity is a good example for Daniel supporting Sam. Holiday can show Sam's caring for Daniel. Foothold is a nice example of Teal'c protecting Sam. Death Knell has a nice supportive scene at the end with Jack caring for Sam. Cor-ai had a passionate Jack fighting for Teal'c (along with the others). The list just doesn't end.
Chemistry isn't all hugs and cuddles, either. Chemistry takes on the form of anger, tension, need, conflict, pain, hurt, separation...the list goes on. We've had examples of this through a show like SG-1 between all the characters.
However, the former examples that I listed, the ones that show deep caring, commitment and love, are more often than not the examples people cite as showing UST. (Though, chemistry that involves feelings of anger, betrayal, sadness, pain, etc can also show UST.) The key is that we can read these scenes any number of ways. Some slashers feel the scenes in Need and The Fifth Race indicate UST and a sexual/romantic love between Jack and Daniel. While, at the same time, some people see Death Knell as Sam/Jack ship. Holiday is one of the eps trumped by the Sam/Daniel people. Foothold for the Sam/Teal'c crew. Yet, someone who does not support that pairing can just as easily see those scenes as friendship.
With such a spectrum and fluidity in the show itself, it's not unusual to find that in fanfic, too. When I read a fic, I expect there to be caring between all the characters, like I see on the show. I expect to see that spark, that chemistry between the characters, reflected in their own unique bonds.
For some, that is not the goal. Not all fic should reflect this attitude. If you are writing a slash fic about a perceived sexual relationship between Daniel and Teal'c, then you might not necessarily need Sam and Jack in your fic. If your fic only concentrates on two characters, one character, a side character...things change. Maybe you don't like a certain character and don't want to read fic that has that character in it. Or maybe your interest is solely in a pairing. Plus, there are times maybe that's all we want to read and think, "Oh, I'm in the mood for some Cam/Sam today..." It's a different dynamic. I'm not really speaking to those kinds of fics here.
But in a standard, teamesque type of story, where all the characters play a role, you're undeniably going to hit that chemistry that is present if it's a well-written story. That chemistry is going to slip into the conversations and actions between Jack and Daniel, Jack and Sam, Jack and Teal'c, etc.
Here's the problem. If an author wants you to know, yes read this chemistry as sexual, a label is slapped on that says UST. If a writer doesn't feel it is sexual, no label of UST. However, some writers don't like to be bound by an either/or attitude and are open to people interpreting their characters' chemistry as platonic or sexual. To slap a label saying UST doesn't reflect the nature of the story.
And yes, I am one of those people ;)
However, by labeling a story gen -- a story that tries to show chemistry between all the characters -- you run the risk of an outcry in the fandom over mislabeling. Some people will say that you're trying to sneak ship or slash into gen story. And sometimes people do, both consciously and subconsciously. But I think it's fair to say that there are a lot of writers out there that are open to people walking away with whatever view they want. If someone reads a story of mine that is gen and walks out of it thinking, "wow I saw something between Daniel and Teal'c" and I never intended that in the first place, I'm okay with that. And it has happened. I'm okay with people seeing ship when it's not there, slash when it's not there. And frankly, I try to write my gen in a way where people can see whatever they want, just like we do in the show.
But like I said, there's always a risk. You can't please everyone. And there will always be someone that doesn't agree with your views. There are fics where this doesn't apply -- full out ship and slash, for example. Also, there are times when a definite UST label is needed and others when gen is more than appropriate. It's a fine line, though.
My concern is that we might be missing some very good fic out there. Fic that might be perceived as Sam/Jack, but really just has some great chemistry between the characters and has a great plot. Or, a fic that might be perceived as Jack/Daniel which actually is just a story that can be read either way, again with a great plot. And that goes for Sam/Daniel, Daniel/Janet, Cameron/Teal'c, Jonas/Sam, even interactions between minor characters and original characters...you name the combination.
I wonder what are your thoughts on this? Again, I used SG-1 as an example but it can be applied to any show, despite whether the show contains canon pairings or not.
I find UST (unresolved sexual tension) to be a term/phrase that is often misused and can be dangerous when labeling writing. Conversely, it can be helpful. So...what do you do?
UST has a foundation in the inherent chemistry between two characters, three characters, an ensemble cast, etc. Chemistry in general is the heart of most engrossing tv and writing. Without chemistry, the characters fall flat and we are less emotionally involved in their actions.
The thing with chemistry is that it can be interpreted and read in a number of ways, one of which is UST. While I am not saying that all chemistry translates into UST, all UST has its roots in chemistry.
Apparently, this can create a problem in the fanfic world. Someone who likes gen will tend to turn their backs on UST and label it a form of ship/slash. Or a fic that may have UST between Sam/Jack may be dismissed because of a dislike for that pairing.
However, there is a chance that the UST in the fic is not actually UST at all, and just chemistry. Could we be turning our backs on outstanding fiction because we perceive UST in a fic when really there's not? Are we dismissing fic that has amazing chemistry between characters because it's labeled as UST, but that UST can be read as either sexual or not? And are we, as writers, boxing ourselves into a corner when writing a fic that has chemistry between characters that could be read either way?
I'm a fan of labels. Really. I don't want to open a fic and get a surprise pairing inside. I don't want to read a fic that I thought was gen and find that it's really a Jack/Daniel slash fic in disguise or fic where Sam and Daniel are secretly angsting over their feelings for each other. Not when I tuned in for a gen fic. What I'm trying to say is, are we limiting ourselves with UST?
I would say the main draw to the show that many of us share is the amazing chemistry between the cast. Whether that cast for you consists of an original cast -- say Jack, Daniel, Sam and Teal'c -- or a change in cast -- say Jack, Sam, Teal'c, and Jonas. It could be Cameron, Sam, Teal'c, Vala, and Daniel. Landry. Hammond. Janet. Whatever. It's the chemistry between the characters added to a decent plot.
Whether your pairing is canon or not is irrelevant. There is no denying that in most shows there is chemistry between most of the characters. In the case of SG-1, I would argue there is chemistry between all of the characters. I really don't think you can deny the chemistry between Sam and Jack -- some may not see it as sexual chemistry, but there is some kind of chemistry between them, whatever it is. There is chemistry between Jack and Daniel, whatever it is. The same for Jack and Teal'c. Daniel and Teal'c. Sam and Daniel. Sam and Teal'c. And so on and so forth.
The show has given us several examples of chemistry. You can look to Need for Jack's caring for Daniel. You can look to The Fifth Race for Daniel's caring for Jack. Singularity is a good example for Daniel supporting Sam. Holiday can show Sam's caring for Daniel. Foothold is a nice example of Teal'c protecting Sam. Death Knell has a nice supportive scene at the end with Jack caring for Sam. Cor-ai had a passionate Jack fighting for Teal'c (along with the others). The list just doesn't end.
Chemistry isn't all hugs and cuddles, either. Chemistry takes on the form of anger, tension, need, conflict, pain, hurt, separation...the list goes on. We've had examples of this through a show like SG-1 between all the characters.
However, the former examples that I listed, the ones that show deep caring, commitment and love, are more often than not the examples people cite as showing UST. (Though, chemistry that involves feelings of anger, betrayal, sadness, pain, etc can also show UST.) The key is that we can read these scenes any number of ways. Some slashers feel the scenes in Need and The Fifth Race indicate UST and a sexual/romantic love between Jack and Daniel. While, at the same time, some people see Death Knell as Sam/Jack ship. Holiday is one of the eps trumped by the Sam/Daniel people. Foothold for the Sam/Teal'c crew. Yet, someone who does not support that pairing can just as easily see those scenes as friendship.
With such a spectrum and fluidity in the show itself, it's not unusual to find that in fanfic, too. When I read a fic, I expect there to be caring between all the characters, like I see on the show. I expect to see that spark, that chemistry between the characters, reflected in their own unique bonds.
For some, that is not the goal. Not all fic should reflect this attitude. If you are writing a slash fic about a perceived sexual relationship between Daniel and Teal'c, then you might not necessarily need Sam and Jack in your fic. If your fic only concentrates on two characters, one character, a side character...things change. Maybe you don't like a certain character and don't want to read fic that has that character in it. Or maybe your interest is solely in a pairing. Plus, there are times maybe that's all we want to read and think, "Oh, I'm in the mood for some Cam/Sam today..." It's a different dynamic. I'm not really speaking to those kinds of fics here.
But in a standard, teamesque type of story, where all the characters play a role, you're undeniably going to hit that chemistry that is present if it's a well-written story. That chemistry is going to slip into the conversations and actions between Jack and Daniel, Jack and Sam, Jack and Teal'c, etc.
Here's the problem. If an author wants you to know, yes read this chemistry as sexual, a label is slapped on that says UST. If a writer doesn't feel it is sexual, no label of UST. However, some writers don't like to be bound by an either/or attitude and are open to people interpreting their characters' chemistry as platonic or sexual. To slap a label saying UST doesn't reflect the nature of the story.
And yes, I am one of those people ;)
However, by labeling a story gen -- a story that tries to show chemistry between all the characters -- you run the risk of an outcry in the fandom over mislabeling. Some people will say that you're trying to sneak ship or slash into gen story. And sometimes people do, both consciously and subconsciously. But I think it's fair to say that there are a lot of writers out there that are open to people walking away with whatever view they want. If someone reads a story of mine that is gen and walks out of it thinking, "wow I saw something between Daniel and Teal'c" and I never intended that in the first place, I'm okay with that. And it has happened. I'm okay with people seeing ship when it's not there, slash when it's not there. And frankly, I try to write my gen in a way where people can see whatever they want, just like we do in the show.
But like I said, there's always a risk. You can't please everyone. And there will always be someone that doesn't agree with your views. There are fics where this doesn't apply -- full out ship and slash, for example. Also, there are times when a definite UST label is needed and others when gen is more than appropriate. It's a fine line, though.
My concern is that we might be missing some very good fic out there. Fic that might be perceived as Sam/Jack, but really just has some great chemistry between the characters and has a great plot. Or, a fic that might be perceived as Jack/Daniel which actually is just a story that can be read either way, again with a great plot. And that goes for Sam/Daniel, Daniel/Janet, Cameron/Teal'c, Jonas/Sam, even interactions between minor characters and original characters...you name the combination.
I wonder what are your thoughts on this? Again, I used SG-1 as an example but it can be applied to any show, despite whether the show contains canon pairings or not.
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no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 01:02 pm (UTC)But I think, then, much of the controversy is coming between this discrepency in definition.
Often, anti-S/J folk feel that the 'shippiness has been "forced" on the show, and so they don't really accept it as part of canon. That's fine. However, whether you feel it worked or was contrived or either or both, it WAS put there on the show, and is part of canon. There are no universes in which Sam and Daniel were married or engaged.:) But I do think the fact it was THERE, like it or not, makes it canon, whereas many other 'ships are complete subtext. Even most hardcore Sam/Janet 'shippers won't try to convince you TPTB meant it to be there.:)
I tend to avoid "gen", because, truly, a story isn't that interesting to me if there isn't some deep connection between the characters who are going through the adventure. This does NOT need be sexual in nature, deep friendship is fine, but the minute you focus on the friendship, someone will inevitably start screaming UST, just as you said about hugs between Jack and Daniel, etc..
This was why, when I created GateShip, the only thing I required was that the stories include or focus on some kind of 'ship between the characters, be it friendship, teamship, whatever. Because that's what interest me or holds me to a story (on screen, as well). (This does NOT mean, I have anything AGAINST stories without these features, just that they're not my personal favorite).
And, fear not, I will continue to label my fic as UST.:) Everyone should be able to find the fic that suits them best and enjoy it.:)
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 02:31 pm (UTC)Three points just jumped right out at me which made me sour ;) I will post this in two posts as I am too wordy, apparently.
1. The idea that gen lacks emotion connections.
This is the biggest misconception there is with gen writing. Whenever I see, it makes my blood boil. It really hits me at my core. Because it comes off almost like a statement of superiority -- that ship or slash fic is better because it deals with emotions while gen does not. As someone who proudly writes gen, I can attest that this is absolutely not the case.
The gen that I read and the gen that I write deals with a range of issues. There's plot, tension, peril, and friendship. People who like gen tend to look for fic that can be like an episode -- whether it's a Sam-centric type of fic, Daniel, Jack, Teal'c, a friendship between two characters like Jonas and Teal'c, or the team itself, which just has a whole package of unique bonds.
What gen does not have as its focus is romance. I scene where Jack comforts Sam because she was hurt offworld? That can be gen. It's still emotionally charged. A scene where Jack comforts Sam when she's hurt off-world, thinks how beautiful she is and longs for her? Now that's getting shippy.
Gen ficcers, for the most part, look for either fic that will continue an emotional friendship sentiment on the show or are looking for an adventure that either highlights one character, two characters, or the team. Essentially, it's a search to "read" an episode and go beyond.
Not everyone is like that, but I think the notion of what gen ficcers are like vs who gen ficcers really are is vastly different. This goes back to sterotypes and biases that are in-grown into factions of the fandom and that we learn from those around us.
That's not to say you can't have ship in gen. The problem here is a question of canon. And this is where we differ philosophically. For me, Sam/Pete and Daniel/Sha're, Teal'c/Ishta, Jack/Sara...all these are canon relationships. If you mention Daniel/Sha're in a gen fic, it's fine. Same with all the types of pairings I've listed and then some. If the *focus* of the fic is on one or more pairings, then it's a ship/slash fic. If it's a subplot, it would still be a ship/slash fic. But if there is a mention or it's a background issue, that is perfectly okay for gen. Confused yet?
(See next post)
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 02:32 pm (UTC)SG-1 is off-world and Sam sees something that reminds her of Pete -- okay. Daniel hopes for a sign that Sha're might be on this planet -- okay. Teal'c encounters someone that knew Ishta -- okay. But the moment the focus shifts from a team adventure or a character adventure, or whatever and concentrates on the ship, it stops being gen.
Sam/Jack -- in the fandom -- does not fall into this category. Why? Because there is a debate on its state in canon. This is in part due to TPTB playing it coyly and because of the issue with the regs they've been dancing around. Me, personally, I can't speak for all gen people. But I acknolwedge that as of S4 they expressed some feelings towards each other. I saw that drop off as they put their jobs first. I saw Sam move on and Jack move on. I saw Sam have doubts with Pete for reasons I don't think solely rely on Jack. But I haven't seen any other hint of feelings from Jack in years. I see scenes like Death Knell and Threads and Heroes and I see Jack caring for someone he loves. I can easily see him caring like that for Teal'c and Daniel. Not in the exact same way as man/man dynamic is different than man/woman.
But that is my interpretation. It doesn't mean that I'm right. But because Sam/Jack is not as definitive as say Sam/Pete, it falls into the grey area for people who don't ship them or view the events in the same way. I don't think either one of us is wrong in how we read these scenes. But for the purposes of the fandom, that lack of clarification makes them a grey area. It goes the same for Daniel/Vala or Daniel/Janet, the last of which had the actors playing ship on purpose.
2. I dislike the term anti-Sam/Jack.
I think this is dangerous. Many people like Sam and Jack, just not in the same way. It comes across so negative sounding. As a person who likes all of the characters and their unique relationships with each other, when I hear the term anto-Sam/Jack I feel like I'm being lumped into a category of people who think a certain way. And I hate labels ;)
3. "Forced" canon. When I describe forced, I am talking about from a writing point of view. This has nothing to do with subtly or subtext. And this has nothing to do with whose ship is more valid or better, which you unintentionally seemed in imply with the Sam/Daniel remark.
I come from a school of thought where I believe you just let the characters be who they are and things will fall into place. When the writers' create scenarios to try to jack up the drama, it can come off really poorly. The more the writers concentrate on these characters' love lives, the further we get away from the main premise of the show. I find many of these situations forced. I think it hurts the characters.
Why introduce Kerry? Why introduce Pete? It was a way to create more drama for Jack and Sam and I didn't think that was a good move. I liked Pete, don't get me wrong, and I don't mind the characters *having" lives. I'm very much a romantic at heart. But I don't tune into a show like this to watch the characters go on dates and stuff. I felt that time could have been spent in showing us Sam and Jack doing something else. Instead, I found all this orchestrated angst. If they wanted Sam and Jack to angst over each other, I think they could have found an idea that fit better into the overall plot. It just sort of was an aside.
I don't want Sam to be just the girl. :(
So...that's where I'm coming from. I know you probaly won't agree and I wasn't arguing with you, it's just a couple of things you said made me sad.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 03:43 pm (UTC)I think what annoyed me so much about Kerry and Pete was that for both I kept thinking, "And why are they there again?"
They added nothing to the sci fi/action-adventure story of Stargate. I'd much rather see Sam and Jack and the rest of the team working together to save the world instead of angsting over their love lives or lack therof.
Which isn't to mean I expect them to be eunuchs either -- a mention of a significant other, such as wanting to get back from a mission because of a date or something doesn't bother me. It's when it becomes the focus, such as a character does something stupid to rush along a mission to get back for the date that the problem sets in.
When they were adding Mitchell, I had hoped maybe they'd have him come in with an established relationship. A good percentage of military personel are married, and no one on the show currently is. But I knew they wouldn't go this route, as Mitchell is the new lead male, and must be unattached so they can have all the Moon Princesses toss themselves at him.
Sounds like I'm anti-romance, but I'm not really. I'd just like it to be well done with a minimum of cliches.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 03:56 pm (UTC)I am not saying that marriage should be main goal of every single character. But the beauty in variety is that we get "real" people.
Jack had a marriage that went south. Daniel is a widower. Sam had a failed engagement. Teal'c bangs every woman he can get.
Now, I am not saying I disagree with these decisions for the original main characters. But I know the reason why they were done -- so you can have that offworld episode and add some romance.
I am not anti-romance. I really am a romantic at heart. But I'm not really into romance as a tool as it on some shows.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 03:30 pm (UTC)I think we're just having some difference on terms and descriptions, as well as a few philosophical issues, but are rather on the same page. But I don't think it's coming across that way.
I do, too. Though our personal tastes may very a bit, I don't really think our fandom philosophies do, at least not by much. I actually find you quite compatible with me, despite how this conversation might look to a casual viewer.*g*
1. The idea that gen lacks emotion connections.
This is the biggest misconception there is with gen writing. Whenever I see, it makes my blood boil. It really hits me at my core. Because it comes off almost like a statement of superiority -- that ship or slash fic is better because it deals with emotions while gen does not. As someone who proudly writes gen, I can attest that this is absolutely not the case.
See, I absolutely agree that this SHOULD BE TRUE! However, it simply has not always been my personal practical experience within the fandom. But I have no doubt AT ALL that there are plenty of gen writers and readers who DO think this way, and that I have merely encounter some of the more vocal factions who don't. I have always had issues with people who confuse friendship with romantic 'ship, and take away from the friendship for fear of the romance label. For me, the Sam/Jack scene at the end of "Death Knell" was a beautiful moment between friends and brothers in arms. It can be ready as 'shippy if that floats your boat, but I don't see why so many people were against it when it seemed to me just a lovely and believable moment between team members who have fought so many desperate battles together. That should be valid gen.
What gen does not have as its focus is romance. I scene where Jack comforts Sam because she was hurt offworld? That can be gen. It's still emotionally charged. A scene where Jack comforts Sam when she's hurt off-world, thinks how beautiful she is and longs for her?
Exactly! This is what I think it should be, but my personal experience has not allowed that without my being charged with 'shippiness. Which is really what I was trying to say about the use (or misuse) of the UST label.
Sam/Jack -- in the fandom -- does not fall into this category. Why? Because there is a debate on its state in canon. This is in part due to TPTB playing it coyly and because of the issue with the regs they've been dancing around. Me, personally, I can't speak for all gen people. But I acknolwedge that as of S4 they expressed some feelings towards each other. I saw that drop off as they put their jobs first.
Okay, in this light I can understand what you're saying, and I have to say, honestly, that in my experience with writers who limit themselves to gen, your above admissions are really the exception, and if they were all willing to say the above, I really wouldn't have these issues. It's amazing how many people will just outright say there has never been any Sam/Jack UST in canon, and I honestly do think that's just a selective perception. Some saw it continue, some didn't, and at that point I agree that we're getting out of canon into subtext. But even by your definition, I'd have to say that the subtle acknowledgement of those feeling in a fic set in season four, would still qualify as gen, because that IS canon and in keeping with the show.
I saw Sam move on and Jack move on. I saw Sam have doubts with Pete for reasons I don't think solely rely on Jack.
Absolutely it was NOT solely Jack, and was not portrayed as such, there were very obvious lines of dialogue implying other issues. But there was also a pretty blatent implication that Jack was a part of her issues (even if he wouldn't have been the deciding factor), so, to me, that kept the underlying "something" as a valid part of canon.
2. I dislike the term anti-Sam/Jack.
For the record, I was not using this term to describe YOU. I do not think of you as anti-Sam/Jack, but was referring to those folk who just plain adamently ARE and will attack accordingly. There are plenty of folk who appreciate the relationship in their own way, and I did not mean to include them in that term.
(see next comment)
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 03:34 pm (UTC)Oooh, no, that's not what I meant at all. Sorry, I probably stated that badly. I merely meant that things like the Sam/Jack relationship in other realities were obvious and undeniably canon facts that would necessarily ratchet up the potential UST of the Sam and Jack in our realities being forced to look at each other with that knowledge now in their minds, and that had to have been knowingly done by TPTB for whatever reasons. Whereas nothing that blatent had been done in canon with Sam/Daniel to lead the average viewer toward a 'shippy frame of mind, and any 'ship there had remained much more in the subtext realm and not been moved into canon.
I come from a school of thought where I believe you just let the characters be who they are and things will fall into place. When the writers' create scenarios to try to jack up the drama, it can come off really poorly.
I agree with this entirely, and as I said over on GS, I have certainly seen this happen on other shows where I groan and headdesk when I see the creators take the cheesy cliche route and arrange the requisite "sexual tension" between the convenient male and female leads of a show that really shouldn't have been focusing on that at all, but they've obvious "plugged this in" because if you have sexual tension you get better ratings...*sigh*....
Why introduce Kerry? Why introduce Pete? It was a way to create more drama for Jack and Sam and I didn't think that was a good move.
I do agree that it became too much. I liked more of it than you did, because these characters are my favorite storyline, so it was fun to indulge for a bit, but I was glad to back away and get back to the center of the show when it was over. I much prefer these things to grow naturally out of the main storyline.
I liked Pete, don't get me wrong, and I don't mind the characters *having" lives. I'm very much a romantic at heart.
Which is, I think, why we tend to get along.*g*
But I don't tune into a show like this to watch the characters go on dates and stuff.
On an utterly irrelvant to the topic note -- I have to say that everytime I heard a rabid S/J fan yell that they thought they absolutely deserved to see as much blatent S/J 'ship (date, dancing, wall sex, afterglow) as they saw with Pete once this was all over, I ran screaming and flailing from the room. S/J is my world, but DEAR GOD IF I EVER SEE THAT ON SCREEN----AAAAHHH, MY EYES!!!! NOOO!!!! Soooo wrong for this show.;)
I felt that time could have been spent in showing us Sam and Jack doing something else. Instead, I found all this orchestrated angst. If they wanted Sam and Jack to angst over each other, I think they could have found an idea that fit better into the overall plot. It just sort of was an aside.
Yes, I do agree with you. I tended to forgive some sloppy writing and take out of it what I get off on, but from a rational point of view, I very much agree with you.
it's just a couple of things you said made me sad.
I hope this reply helped that a bit. I don't want you sad!!!
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 04:01 pm (UTC)And I do believ we are somewhere in the same ballpark when it comes to the fandom. We have different interpretations and we also have different philsophies, but we really are arguing for the same core things, I think.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 04:14 pm (UTC)Which actually was the point of my original post...I think. So you get a cookie.
I have said it before and I will say it again: I am simply fascinated by the how similar our experiences have been, yet how different they are. You've encountered gen I didn't even know existed -- gen that had a lack of emotional connection. I've encountered gen that I felt was often mislabeled, crossing that boundary of ship and slash.
Add that to our different exposures in the fandom and it creates two completely different atmospheres and spheres of influence.
I am very sad that you have experienced gen of that nature. Just as I am sure I have missed some good team fic that I avoided because of Sam/Jack.
So thanks for all your clarifications in these posts. I have enjoyed discussing a topic from different angles without it becoming a shouting match. It was rather pleasant and I feel like I've walked away knowing more :)
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Date: 2006-08-02 05:52 pm (UTC)Oooh, cookie!!!
I am very sad that you have experienced gen of that nature. Just as I am sure I have missed some good team fic that I avoided because of Sam/Jack.
I wanted to ask--got any good recs for me?:D And please don't think I'm asking you to choose anything to "illustrate a point" or anything like that. You've just obviously read some good, emotionally deep, gen fics I've missed, and I need something good to read.:D So, any recs of your faves would be muchly appreciated.:) (Hint: hurt/comfort involving Sam in any way is my personal crack:))
It was rather pleasant and I feel like I've walked away knowing more :)
Oh, me, too! You really made me think about my perspectives on things, and I do feel you've influenced me for the better and helped me understand some things that had been fuzzier for me before. So...yay!
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Date: 2006-08-02 08:05 pm (UTC)Sam/Team
Chance
Written for the team ficathon, this one is quite a bit from Sam's perspective (and poor Daniel is unconsious most of the time, heh). Although very actiony, also shows a lot of caring amongst the various members of the team for each other.
Teal'c and Sam
Perchance to Dream
I've got a couple of Daniel and Sam friendship fics, but will have to look for them after I get out of a meeting. ;-)
I haven't run into many Jack and Sam fics, and I think it's sadly because of this whole UST issue. If people write them together as friends, people who are extremely anti-ship won't like to see even the friendship (which is ridiculous and a shame) and shippers may be upset it doesn't go far enough to show their "true" feelings. Sigh. Maybe I'll write one sometime anyway. :-(
Gen authors I generally recommend? Moonshayde, heh.
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Date: 2006-08-02 09:25 pm (UTC)And, yes, that's exactly what I mean about the Sam/Jack problem....*sigh*... People are so much trouble to themselves, aren't they?*g*
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Date: 2006-08-02 09:32 pm (UTC)I agree with this too. I haven't a clue where to start to find something gen that might have a Sam and Jack focus. Or, that maybe team focused with Sam-centric parts, etc.
And I think that is some of motivation for posting this thread to begin with.
Though, it's a person's perogative whether they don't want to read something with a Sam and Jack slant. True, they might be missing out on a good story, but if they didn't like those characters to begin with, then the point is probably moot.
Since I don't happen to be 100% in any faction or view, my range of fic is a little bit broader. That's just the way I choose to be. Doesn't mean I'm right or everyone else is wrong.
That being said, I am open to any team fics or Sam and Jack fics that are friendshippy if you know of any.
I'm going to see what I can find in terms of gen/team and gen/different friendships for you. Yet at the say time, maybe we can do an exchange and you can pass on some reccs yourself.
I'm going to post this on the list, too.
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Date: 2006-08-02 10:13 pm (UTC)Crap, I can't find the other one. It takes place in either Sam's lab or Daniel's office. Sam and Daniel talking about their respective curses in the romance league. It's just sweet Sam and Daniel fare. I think it's at stargatefan, but with that site down, it's hard to find anything. That's a goodie too. Maybe someone else can remember the story and link. I'm my usual dense self and don't remember author or title either. I can tell you what happens, but not who wrote it or what it's called. :-(
Have you read "Comparing Scars" by
Sends
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Date: 2006-08-02 06:18 pm (UTC)hehe *bwg* I would say just that! *g*
I will put it this way...there have been moments that could be interpreted as UST between Sam/Jack, but I don't see it as canon--just as a perception, an interpretation that anyone is free to make. I think there have been just as many Daniel/Jack moments that could be interpreted as UST and I don't see that as canon either. I think that because Sam and Jack are male/female, more people are inclined to perceive their interaction as UST.
As you mentioned, the scene at the end of Death Knell was not shippy. It was gen. I didn't like it because it felt squicky to me, but even if one saw chemistry between Sam/Jack that scene wasn't any more shippy than the hug between Daniel & Jack in Within the Serpent's Grasp or the hug in Need.
I think that any and all UST between Sam and Jack is open to the same interpretation.
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Date: 2006-08-02 07:25 pm (UTC)::shrugs::
Truce.
Happily agree to disagree.:)
::offers cookie::
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Date: 2006-08-02 08:09 pm (UTC):::accepts cookie and offers hot chocolate:::
I could be dismissed as a crazy person, too. *g* I don't know that there are many people who see it as I do. :-)
I think the cool thing about fandom is that there are so many of us out there with very diverse opinions, interpretations, and desires, that makes it all interesting. :-)
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Date: 2006-08-02 08:18 pm (UTC)*hugs aiz and rowan*
Yay :)
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Date: 2006-08-04 06:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 07:39 pm (UTC)I will admit, I am one of those who find Sam/Jack to be "forced" in canon. By forced, I mean scenes like "Divide and Conquer". As someone who never saw the chemistry as romantic, a declaration in "Divide and Conquer" seemed like a bolt out of the blue, where does this come from? and an aberration. Much like Jacob and Selmak being together for "four years".
Jack and Sam as together in other realities when their lives were different, sure, a different spin. But I don't think that makes J/S more canon than before. In this reality, Jack and Sam's relationship and respective histories is that of military comrades and close friendship.
Am I saying I'm right and you're wrong? No. I'm just saying that what you're seeing as obvious canon is not what I see as obvious canon. They're different interpretations, and there's been inconsistencies in how the show handles the interaction.
You and moonshayde went round the mulberry bush on the canon of J/S in GS before, and it gave me a lightbulb moment for a whole meta post in my lj about ship in Stargate. What it boiled down to is there is a fundamental difference in perspective without a right or wrong about it. Like that picture where you can see either an old woman or a young woman. Same picture different perspectives. That's how I see the ship debate.
Which brings me back to moonshayde's point about the UST label. In the show, we see an action but can interpret different meanings. Jack and Sam can exchange a look. A nonshipper will read friendship or nothing to it. A shipper may read it as a smouldering look of passion. What's on the screen is basic, what's interpreted is the audience's call.
In fanfic, it's a different baliwick. We describe a character's actions, but we can also describe their thoughts and emotions. How we describe it can make the difference. I'll give an example, totally made up out of my head this instant, not from any fic:
Jack and Sam exchanged a long look, mentally communicating their common concern for how the team would get out of this jam.
A non-shipper spin.
Jack and Sam exchanged a long look, communicating without words.
Ambiguous. Could be read as communicating mere friendship, worry, verifying the plan, or showing their undying and unspoken love.
Jack and Sam exchanged a long look, trying to tell a wealth of unspoken feelings for each other in what may be their last moments together.
Shipper view.
The third one I would say needs an UST label. The first two don't. It's the spin of discussion that makes the difference. Not whether it's canon or not.
As moonshayde said, if Daniel/Shau'ri or Teal'c/Drey'auc (poor WIFE, getting passed over for Ishta, LOL) are referenced, that's not UST, it's just background. If the fic is about Daniel or Teal'c mourning for their spouses or something, that's ship.
I hate anti-shipper labels too. I consider myself a non-shipper (and I use shipper in the vaguest sense to include slash/femslash/whatever label goes for alien romances). Whatever floats your boat is cool, just don't try and capsize my friendship vessel.
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Date: 2006-08-02 09:22 pm (UTC)I definitely didn't, I was just parroting for you how I was introduced to the genre and what I was handed and how my own work was critiqued and pidgeon-holed by others. I made my fic reading choices according to what I was told (and in some cases, shown) the categories represented. I have hardly read much gen at all and I am by no means qualified (no do I desire to) pass any kind of judgement. I have no doubt of the quality and depth in gen fic that exists out there. 'Tis all good.:)
After this thread, I admit, I will definitely be branching out into looking at some of the more highly recced gen fics more often and will no doubt find things I truly love.
As for your examples of what should be gen vs. fic, I completely agree with you, and that is how I would make my own labelling judgements.
As for the Sam/Jack thing...well, I could reply and then you would reply, but I think it would save time if I just refer you up this thread a bit to where I told aiz I will happily agree to disagree, and please have a cookie.:) If we all agreed on everything, all our discussions would just sound like those alien muppets that just go around saying "Yepyepyepyepyep...." *g*
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Date: 2006-08-02 10:11 pm (UTC)I know you think I'm delusional. That's okay. My main forum has a mix of shippers and non-shippers. We call each other that all the time and then discuss important deep subjects like the uses of myth on the show...and hairstyles. Hee hee.
So long as everyone gets to see consistent characterization and interesting stories on the program, it's all good, right? Because in the end, that's all everybody wants.
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Date: 2006-08-03 01:14 am (UTC)hehe And too bad we don't always get this on the show. *evil grin*